. There is no difference between His Person and His Attributes, and His Attributes should not be differentiated or distinguished from His Person. Interesting title. These are subjective, private experiences. Could it well be that this spiritual sense is very prone to illusion as well? I like your emphasis here. God, our creator cannot be perceivable by the five senses for, He is not a thing-which is compound elements etc or created. And I am not sure about the analogy concerning trusting your wife, unless you wake up everyday lying literally next to a flesh and blood Jesus who literally speaks with you or even makes you breakfast some mornings. According to Enns, when Paul spoke about Adam, he was not communicating actual history (though Paul believed that he was), rather, he was highlighting an important theological fact (the universal sinfulness of man), employing the most foundational biblical idiom available to him (Enns 2012, p. 142). My point is a rather modest one: the question of Gods existence is not settledone way or the otheron the basis of the kind of evidence-based knowledge that modern western culture (rightly) embraces to help us explain many, many things around us. Here are a couple ways: 1) Do they insist on making incorrect statements about the world as-is? Asking whether the enemy, or lunch, or nothing is moving in the bush over there is something we do together. Not sure what the phrase, proper locus of religious conviction means, because based on my own interactions with a wide variety of folks I have noticed that people dont have the same attraction to mystical or spiritual thinking. For me, I often think about thinking in this context more than either a historically analytical school or even Continental. It does though offer means to consider qualitative differences. Heh, that brings back memories of being taught as a child that every breath I took was the providential, direct action of Jesus. . To me, simply, neither these two billion adherents nor their leaders really seem all that differentiated from their peer adherents of Allah, Brahma, and more in sacred task of transforming the world. If this is my basis, Im as comfortable (maybe more comfortable) with a Great Spirit of native Americans as I am with a YHWH of Israel. I said that when it comes to experiences, peoples experience of Allah or Yahweh or Jesus or Krishna or Buddha lay along a wide spectrum. I have posts on my blog, Scrivenings, about depressions and suicide among Christians, and their gullibility, i.e., religious affinity fraud. I only presume that peoples experiences of God are a mixed bag that lay along a very wide spectrum. Proud men who reject His call are incredibly stupid and foolish beyond measure. Great Value. If we raise it all today (or tomorrow or Wednesday tbh) we're going to make. But by putting these experiences on the table and sharing them, we can say some objective things about them. In this episode of The Tentative Apologist Podcast we sit down with Dr. Peter Enns to explore a range of questions relating to the Bible, science and faith. In fact, presuming that evidence-based knowledge is the only sure way of knowing anythingworth knowing lies behind both the angst and the sense of certainty many feel about Gods existence or non-existence. This is very simple. Historically, I understand the Mystics predate the Enlightenment or Modernity, but I think it was Friedrich Schleiermacher who cut a swath through the rough underbrush of Empiricism to find a spiritual path that was immediate and subjective. Failures in relationships abound, and there is no need to belabour this with current examples. And look to see if theyre shared. I am sincerely interested in your thoughts on two ideas. Your argument for disbelief is foolish, because God cannot be like any of the things perceived by the senses, nor can He be said to bear any resemblance to anything which has to undergo an ordeal of change and decay. You cannot relate to it if you dont have a little one of your own. Such a person in fact believes Him to exist in Parts. Instead, we have too many that believe theirs is the only truth, and are so confident its inerrancy, they feel compelled to enforce it in a world where evidence is really necessary to develop societal mores. As an admittedly poor psychology major in college, I was particularly fascinated with neurology and how humans process and interpret information/stimuli. Were two thousand years in. There is none for 11 Peter, a writing a majority of critical scholarship places at some point in the 2nd century long after Peters death (Wikipedias page on it is a decent starting point showing the various arguments). It certainly seems that way as we compare the experiences of people across faiths. not be confused with experience. Instead, he needs to go the edge of the realm and scratch against the edges. So 2 Peter was written by Peter.how sure are you on that? Dr. Peter Enns (PhD, Harvard University) is Abram S. Clemens professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, St. Davids, PA. In these chapters God fashions "the man" (ha adam) from earth (adamah), breathes life into his nostrils, and makes him a caretaker . Messiah College Also, be sure to read the book rather than a blurb to see what I am after. It is not when I am going to meet him, but when I am just turning away and leaving him alone, that I discover that God is. And if Peter didnt write it and the author was not present; is it still considered an eyewitness testimony? Certainly, too many Islamists (by no means all) are tragically attempting to force their beliefs on others, and the result is ISIS, AQ, Boko Haram, and too many other groups. Im loosely affiliated with an international church (evangelical) in Beijing; and it is quite stark to me here how the Western mind (American in particular) shapes and engages with Christian faith. (Yawn.) Every disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who draws out from their storage room things both old and new. As long as the genes replicate, its worked. Indeed, it is a way of knowing that has been championed as part of the development of culture in the Western tradition, but to pigeon hole the method as somehow distinctively Western is to lose something about its universality in a universe that significantly appears to exhibit fundamental uniformity. Were two thousand years in. You can although quite innadequately (as with so many other things in life), still put them on the table. So we have an eyewitness account of a historical event in which God reveals His great pleasure in His Son, Jesus Christ. The way we organize socially as spiritual communities reflects how we organize the project of faith internally. Peter Enns' new book, How the Bible Actually Works, at its best seeks to place us on the hard, but rewarding, path of wisdom. How could God (if He does exist) reject anyone who was honestly searching? Thank you Joseph. Does God exist? I have asked many people who say that they dont believe, what evidence would be sufficient for them to believe that God exists, and I think the opposite, what evidence would be sufficient to convince me that God does not exist First, let me say that I hold to the position that without faith one cannot please God His words, not mine. . People who can conceive N concepts of God seem more adapt at considering the one concept of God of the person who can conceive one concept of God than people who can conceive one concept of God making sense of the N concepts of God of the others schema. In other words, I dont believe in God because I see no evidence for God or I believe in God because the evidence proves it are both nonsensical claims for me.. It goes without saying that the writings you mentioned can contain interesting concepts, but they do not reveal the God of the universe anymore than an Agatha Christy mystery, which I dearly enjoy. He was dismissed as O.T. To dig down a little deeper theologically, I can deeply understand the paradox of the Incarnation of not only a God-as-man, but in the form of a baby in a manager in Galilee in first-century Palestine. perhaps the matter of knowing God is based on ones necessity to survive. Methinks, if I loved him more, I should keep himI should keep myself, ratherat a more respectful distance. There can be various degrees of certainty, of course. I realize that there is a long and rich history of discussion over difficult philosophical issues concerning the existence of God. I like the fruit of this way of knowingeverything from electricity and medicine to electron-microscopesand radio telescopes. Introduction: This article will be on the subject of God's wrath and retribution. And there are child-rearing costs to and constraints concerning size of head vs. size of pelvis. enns has published three books hijacking the agenda: economic power and political influence (winner of the gladys m. kammerer award, presented by the american political science association to honor the best book published during the previous year in the field of u.s. national policy), incarceration nation: how the united states became the most 75-76]. Hi Pete, Living with uncertainty is a relative thing. One task that gives me great joy is to introduce students to the big picture of the biblical story and to develop insight and respect for how the Old and New Testaments are in conversation with each other. Peter Enn's Argument for a Metaphorical Interpretation of the Bible and Why Universalism Is As Legit As . Evidence: The heavens declare the glory of God. 800 spiritually empty words. As a United Methodist, part of how I articulate this is in the language of experience (1 part of what Albert Outler named the Wesleyan quadrilateral). I mean, I continue to wonder about such questions after leaving Evangelicalism. Some come by more rational means, others emotional, others mystical, Who am I, or you, to say any one way is the right way. This blog was first posted in March 2016. I tend to experience *both* God and people in the manner described. Bavinck has a tendency to get to the point doesnt he ? Universalism is the belief that everyone eventually will be saved. Nor does it mean we cannot say anything objective about them. The only reason I could see us being worried about being wrong about a certain path/religion/idea/concept would be because God (our Creator) might reject us if we chose the wrong path. Here's where the money is going! (edited with Chris Wlezien). Im still working on itof course. Our Western universe has given rise to marvelous things (as you mentioned) but it has blinded us to other dimensions of the soul that reveal a much larger reality outside of our ability to reason or carry out prescribed functions. But I see no reason to believe that Jesus of Nazareth has been, is, or will be the means of grace or hope of glory. The Christian trusts God even when things do not always make sense this tensions exists in the Christian message and story (but it exists in everyones story) the four Gospels are not shy in displaying this reality. The realm of the elohim and the realm of the seen (1 sam 28.13). Also, your point about eyewitness testimony is inaccurate. Dr. Peter Enns (PhD, Harvard University) is Abram S. Clemens professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, St. Davids, PA. . No Muslim ever imposed Islamic law on others by praying 5 times a day. One of the things about the Western way of knowing is that it isnt really a Western way of knowing. Alot of us have reached the point where the only left left to do is bring people together despite our differences. He is a cohost of the popular podcast The Bible for. Having beliefs was like always clinging tightly to something in the water to keep one afloat, always being afraid of letting go and learning to swim in the sea of faith. To me, simply, neither these two billion adherents nor there leaders really seem all that differentiated from their peer adherents of Allah, Brahma, and more in sacred task of transforming the world. It is vitally important that we respond with a yes when He calls, and this is why humility is sooo important. Perhaps the thing that could hold rationality, mysticism, intuition, etc all together is love- as a way of knowing. as yours. I do not think the gospel stands on whether we can read Paul's Adam in the . In Roman Catholicism, Peter is seen as the first vicar of the church and so on. I think there is a model there where the subjective, but real experience of God is the starting point for understanding the perceptual equipment, which will help us to acknowledge the existence of a real Being that makes the subjective states or experiences real. But if he gets a response in morse, he doesnt need to empirically see whats on the other side to begin the process of knowing the other side. Though I do see you headed in the general direction of Frank Schaeffer author of the recent book, Why I am an atheist who still believes in God. pages we were years from learning Although, both people and God can be disappointing in ways myself included. Previous Post Wholeheartedness with Chuck DeGroat When a faith fights the fight of certainty of an understanding the world as-is putting iron age as-is foundations against present-day as-is understandings, the battle is already conceded. And whether that link between what you perceive or experience and reality is as strong as you think. So Im not really sure what your point is. I get your post. A few years ago David Benners Spirituality and the Awakening Self: The Sacred Journey of Transformationwas very helpful in pushing me to look at the God question differently at a time when I was ready to hear it. in being with another person expressing love in ones flesh. Left the Ministry. AMA. Ted Cruz proudly stated that any president who doesnt pray on his knees to Jesus Christ every day isnt fit to be commander-in-chief. Thankfully it is much less today. By some measure, through Jesus of Nazareth and the ensuing religion of Christianity, a longing has been fulfilled; there has been great participation. In fact, there are now around two billion adherents to the faith. So I would never presume to tell someone like Pete or the Dali Lama that their experiences are not in their subjective sense real. Only that any confidence they glean from those experiences to then conclude what they believe they encountered they actually in fact have, well, that I would claim is highly suspect and demonstrably so. . While specific sins against a particular God, prophet, holy book, holy place, or sacrament, are as diverse as could be. Here might be some: Healing, forgiveness, graciousness, redemption, justice, protection, universality. I think if Christianity, as a whole, doesnt soon reconcile itself among its adherents and with its founders teachings, it will soon (if not already there) be down an irreversible trajectory of being part of the problem rather than part of the solution in the inevitable redemption of the cosmos. Pete Enns critiques John Piper's recent remarks about the Jewish conquest of Canaan in the Old Testament. What about more recent writings such as the Gettysburg Address? But is that version of a Messiah a bringer of healing to all? An Atheist Evolutionist Asks a Good Question of Dr. Peter Enns October 22, 2012 It seems that Young Earth Creationists are not the only ones who find BioLogos' attempt to "reconcile science and faith" lacking. All of life is a response. Im more so now in my life in the former group of people. The other day he wrote a post that he entitled Why I Don't Believe in God Anymore. 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; He has taught courses at several other institutions including Harvard University, Fuller Theological Seminary, and Princeton Theological Seminary. Then once that person starts walking with God God (should) will reveal the truth to them. He has written numerous books, including The Bible Tells Me So, The Sin of Certainty, and How the Bible Actually Works. This is perhaps another way to look at the sin of certainty. In regards to ones intelligence, I am reading St Teresa of Avilas Interior Castle right now and in the first parts of it she refers to herself as stupid and if they (the nuns she is writing to) understand what she is saying, it is not herself that is speaking but it is God through her. Thanks for this insight. When I gave up the notion of God, I did not give up on the experiences of participation, longing, fullness, contemplativeness, depth, and immediacy. Across religions, the evidences are the grapes and figs. .without faith one cannot please God His words, not mine. I would encourage you to ask God to show you His truth from His book. That is a blessing from God. One of the hallmarks of progressive Christianity is a rejection of biblical sexuality, and an affirmation of same-sex marriage and premarital sex. An Atheist that believes in God. Im not certain as to where youre taking your evolutionary train of thought. Most Evangelicals find themselves on that path when their evidence takes a beating and they retreat to the world of mystery. 2) Do their beliefs about God or Gods or whatever bring us to harming the other or the world, or bring us to healing and redeeming? Enns seeks to grow us in maturity so that we might take up wisdom. Enns-FR.jpg. Abstrak Permasalahan dalam tulisan ini terletak pada isu doktrin eskatologi tentang kerajaan seribu tahun, khususnya dalam pandangan dispensasionalisme dengan covenant theology. As revealed clearly in the scriptures, God is raising up out of this raging cauldron of sin pain and suffering adopted sons(and daughters) who will embrace the process of being transformed by their tests and trials into those who will be worthy of ruling and reigning with Him throughout eternity. Its not that we dont know, its that our knowing is ultimately so relative. Here's the heart of it: 'Westminster Theological Seminary's board voted to suspend tenured professor Peter Enns last week after a two-year theological debate over his 2005 book, Inspiration and Incarnation. I have met lifelong atheists who never got high on Jesus in their youth like you or I did. Thanks for this post. Now as to whether what the historical eyewitness claims he experienced is a real supernatural phenomenon well that is where faith comes in. Also check out The Inner Eye of Love by a Jesuit named William Johnson, or try books by Dom Bede Griffiths, a fellow convert with C. S. Lewis but who spent his life in India dialoguing with people of other religions. True mystics do experience God in a tangible manner that is more real than anything that could ever be experienced through the five senses although those senses may be secondarily affected. I agree that post-enlightenment empiricism is never going to lead to genuine interaction with the creator, but what about prayer? This sort of knowing is beyond reason, but it is not irrational. Those are all things that can be looked at. Here in this comment thread, we havent really talked about the latter. God means many different things to people. I think there are multiple reality tunnels and people make many different claims concerning their personal experiences. @peteenns. Robert Anton Wilson pointed out how many people cling tightly to a single reality tunnel and dont dare to seek all the ways their tunnel overlaps with that of others. . Slow chuckle. Many people arrive at different conclusions (that is fine) and see things differently doubt is a complex subject that will not fully be flushed out in this conversation. For, everything is under the one and the same law-the law of transformation and decline. Im trying to think through/explore this. So thats where I am at this stage of my journey on the whole God thing. I think the answer is bringing up the conversations more and trying to find what we have in common with each other. ), having that preverbal felt sense of wonder, well-being & delight, sitting in the little Cave of flesh of oneself, hearing the birds twittering in spring sunshine for the first time, the thrill of having learned ones ABCs and the letters becoming words & the words becoming sentences when one is 6 years old, the gift and thrill of ones sexuality(Intense pleasure!) You made some very good points. Thatjust doesnt work for me. As Read Post The Evangelical Mind February 5, 2013 Category: General Tags: Doubt, Peter Enns, The Mind, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, Theology, Wisdom In view of all that is eternal it would not be worth much to consider them other than to satisfy academic curiosity. The universal and self-evident problem of death 2: The universal . For instance, some have hypothesized the benefit of aggressive agency detection. He brings these questions to his conversation with Jim, wrestling with how the Bible relates to our lives today. But what I cannot comprehend is that after two thousand years, these loftiest of other-way-of-knowing-related claims have produced only some good. Per the books blurb, The Sin of Certainty models an acceptance of mystery and paradox that all believers can follow and why God prefers this path because it is only this way by which we can become mature disciples who truly trust God.. So lets give that a shot. Hey Ed; I can definitely understand what youre saying and thats why many people go thru many religions while on this path of truth. As is our deference in religious spheres to authorities revelations. Such is life. Sorry for the aimless rambling and thanks again for your post! As if chosen by God to tell people who should be a christian based on their concerns regarding the bible. Many dont understand that the contentions among faiths are fought (and will be won in the end) not on the grounds of being right, but on the grounds of making the world right. Dave Burbank Normal people can figure it out. Fideism is a rich and credible approach to knowing God. Again, while it takes a God-given faith to believe the substance of Peter and Johns testimonies, are we to take from your article that we should not put trust in the authenticity of their writings? Origen and universalism, in general, were condemned as unorthodox at the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553) . Or even what the cosmos is? Which then opens up the question of what reality it what knowing we are engaged in. Enns prefers this approach because it supports his view of Adam as proto-Israel (107) and maintains an Israel-centered focus rather than a universal one (106). Posts about pete enns written by Jesse Winn. Show Notes This episode was . Then here you go! It just begs the question, which one? It went something like this: Your desire to employ empiricism as a means of knowing God; you are like a person in the middle of a realm with night-vision goggles, microscopes, radar equipment, headphones and such. Doesnt everyone including yourself feel an urge to respond given an open forum and divergent points of view? Pseudo-Solomon and His Scripture: Biblical Interpretation in the Wisdom of Solomon,, The Contribution of Ecclesiastes to Biblical Theology,. After writing "Analysis of Rachel Held Evan's Book "Inspired" Part 1: Introduction" yesterday I noticed that Rachel Held Evans sees Peter Enns as a mentor. If the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ does exist, watch out. To me it seems, the more beliefs correspond to reality, the better the organism is adapted to survive and reproduce. It is transrational. Peter Enns' latest book is written in praise of question marks, especially those that crowd our minds when God goes missing. If I have the experience of perceiving spiraling motion when looking upon a static optical illusion, you cannot deny that I have the experience of perceiving motion. He is also co-founder and chief . Which faith offers the greatest fulfillment of the cosmos longings? All three books seek to better understand political representation, inequality, and social outcomes in the United States. I suspect it is because they are not comfortable with any other way of knowing. When a European team of scientists and an American team and a Chinese team run an experiment, the results are consistent. Id suggest if participation, longing, , and immediacy are ways of knowing God, that they would more need to be means of recursively traversing an infinite regress of fractal complexity than means of simply and linearly knowing a static being. Mitchel Modine is an Old Testament scholar who works at Asia-Pacific Nazarene Theological Seminary. Also try googling sea of faith.. There are great books written by the likes of Brennan Manning on trusting God and there are great books written on eschatology (Jurgen Moltmann, N. T. Wright, etc) about Gods salvation extending from the ends of the earth. Whatever the proper loci are, watch out. But if you are after people of all religions, denominations, sects and cults saying, We dont really know, but why change because this seems to be working alright? Fine. I have been following your story since the Westminster brouhaha (and enjoyed and endorsed your books to others online) but I dont recall reading your whole story from your youth, which I am sure would be interesting, probably some overlap with Randal Rausers and my own Evangelical Christian youth. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. Dr. Peter Enns (PhD, Harvard University) is Abram S. Clemens professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, St. Davids, PA. Thats why all we need to focus on is the Way; which is your way that youre honestly seeking God. Evidence based knowledge may not be necessary for a person to believe in God, but it sure would be handy when it comes to rival claims about God between people in different religions, denominations and mystical sects, not to mention between various schools of non-religious philosophical theists, agnostics and atheists. Such as I would imagine the Eastern Orthodox who are known for such practice and perspective on faith. But does anyone really need to write a book to make explicit what every religious person implicitly practices in terms of maintaining their beliefs and holy practices? The list of aspects offered doesnt quite get us to a means by which to assess exclusivity. How do you know these are HIS words? Because of these aspects, thinking is a collaborative engagement. What of our spiritual experiences then? And the one thing that every single wisdom tradition or religious group teaches is the way. ~ Jackson Browne. The western way of knowing privileges the observation and analysis/testingofexternal evidence by knowledgable, experienced, and educated people who make arguments and defend them. Even Yale was founded by some conservative ministers displeased at the growing moderation, liberalism and theological excesses as they say it, happening at Havard. Their experience will be every bit as powerful, transformative, transcendent, etc. We struggle with and within the limits of what we can come to know. However, I think you are confusing or conflating the experience of God with the existence of God. Magic is not real. Thanks for posting this. Adam and Eve are the Bible's first man and first woman. I'm attaching my 6 page summary of Peter Enns' new book, Genesis for Normal People: Enns on Genesis.doc (55.5 KB) Dr. Enns attempts to simply explain for average Christians how many scholars read Genesis. On another point, both in Johns writings and Peters writings there are statements of eye-witness testimonies. Biblical scholar and author Dr. Peter Enns will be in Lynchburg for a series of "Evolution Weekend" events February 15-16, joining with many other such efforts nationwide under the umbrella of the Clergy Letter Project.. And the crash can be hard, just look at Mother Teresas painful decades long crash after getting high on Jesus in her teen years. How sure are you that those are eyewitness accounts. The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable To Read It. Rather, knowledge of God is described by terms like: participation But parents in talking with each other can often immediately grasp when a fellow parent reveals that they share that same experience. 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