If this were true, the two sections would be much closer. . [21], Edmund Fitzgerald was a record-setting workhorse, often beating her own milestones. [39] Around 5p.m., Edmund Fitzgerald joined a second freighter under the command of Captain Jesse B. The U.S. Navy also contracted Seaward, Inc., to conduct a second survey between November 22 and 25. Edmund Fitzgerald lay about 15 miles (13nmi; 24km) west of Deadman's Cove, Ontario (about 8 miles (7.0nmi; 13km) northwest of Pancake Bay Provincial Park), 17 miles (15nmi; 27km) from the entrance to Whitefish Bay to the southeast, in Canadian waters close to the international boundary at a depth of 530 feet (160m). [177] In addition to the crew, 26,116 long tons (29,250 short tons; 26,535t) of taconite sank along with the vessel. [104], Edmund Fitzgerald sank at the eastern edge of the area of high wind[105] where the long fetch, or distance that wind blows over water, produced significant waves averaging over 23 feet (7.0m) by 7:00p.m. and over 25 feet (7.6m) at 8:00p.m. Conversion to oil fuel and the fitting of automated boiler controls over the winter of 197172. Relatives of the crew halted this move, objecting that the bell was being used as a "traveling trophy. When the gales of November came early. Marie at 7:39p.m. on channel16, the radio distress frequency. Discovery of the shoal resulted in a change in recommended shipping routes. But even this many years later, the story still captivates the public's . Former Second Mate Richard Orgel, who served on Edmund Fitzgerald in 1972 and 1973, testified that "the ship had a tendency to bend and spring during storms 'like a diving board after somebody has jumped off. [170] Of the official recommendations, the following actions and USCG regulations were put in place: Karl Bohnak, an Upper Peninsula meteorologist, covered the sinking and storm in a book on local weather history. [49] McSorley said that he would slow his ship down so that Arthur M. Anderson could close the gap between them. He further noted that USCG rescue vessels were unlikely to reach the scene of an incident on Lake Superior or Lake Huron within 6to 12hours of its occurrence. The event was plagued by misfortunes. [98][99] In 2009, a further amendment to the Ontario Heritage Act imposed licensing requirements on any type of surveying device. Carried 72,000U.S.gal (270,000L; 60,000impgal) fuel oil, This page was last edited on 3 January 2023, at 04:57. [134] This increase and the resultant reduction in freeboard decreased the vessel's critical reserve buoyancy. Keel laid March 18, 1959; launched Nov 7, 1959. [163] Captain Paquette of Wilfred Sykes noted that this change allowed loading to 4,000 tons more than what Edmund Fitzgerald was designed to carry. The Traverse City, Michigan, USCG station launched an HU-16 fixed-wing search aircraft that arrived on the scene at 10:53p.m. while an HH-52 USCG helicopter with a 3.8-million-candlepower searchlight arrived at 1:00a.m. on November 11. Up until a few weeks before her loss, passengers had traveled on board as company guests. [4], In 1969, Edmund Fitzgerald received a safety award for eight years of operation without a time-off worker injury. On the afternoon of November 9, 1975 the Fitzgerald departed Superior, Wisconsin en route to the steel mill on Zug Island, near Detroit, Michigan. Thousands of ships have sunk in Great Lakes since the European explorers began navigating the Lakes in late 1600. On the Great Lakes of North America, she took the record as the largest ship. SS Arthur M. Anderson is a cargo ship of the laker type. 9 was not detailed enough to indicate Six Fathom Shoal as a hazard to navigation.[146]. [82], The stress fracture hypothesis was supported by the testimony of former crewmen. Marie, include two lifeboats, photos, a movie of Edmund Fitzgerald and commemorative models and paintings. [79] MacInnis concluded that the notes and video obtained during the dives did not provide an explanation why Edmund Fitzgerald sank. [17] Originally coal-fired, her boilers were converted to burn oil during the 197172 winter layup. [76] The GLSHS used part of the five hours of video footage produced during the dives in a documentary and the National Geographic Society used a segment in a broadcast. [9] In 1957, they contracted Great Lakes Engineering Works (GLEW), of River Rouge, Michigan, to design and construct the ship "within a foot of the maximum length allowed for passage through the soon-to-be completed Saint Lawrence Seaway. Captain Ernest M. McSorley had loaded her with 26,116 long tons of taconite pellets, made of processed iron ore, heated and rolled into marble-size balls. [84] Shannon determined that based on GPS coordinates from the 1994 Deepquest expedition, "at least one-third of the two acres of immediate wreckage containing the two major portions of the vessel is in U.S. waters because of an error in the position of the U.S.Canada boundary line shown on official lake charts. Gordon Lightfoot made it the subject of his 1976hit song "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" after reading an article, "The Cruelest Month", in the November 24, 1975, issue of Newsweek. Great lakes Edmund Fitzgerald porter beer, Cleveland Ohio Made. [23] Fitzgerald had attempted to dissuade the naming of the ship after himself proposing the names Centennial, Seaway, Milwaukee and Northwestern. Morrell. Arthur M. Anderson was also the first rescue ship on the scene in a vain search for Edmund Fitzgerald survivors. En route to a steel mill near Detroit, Edmund Fitzgerald joined a second taconite freighter, SSArthur M. Anderson. They found that the Canadian 1973navigational chart for the Six Fathom Shoal area was based on Canadian surveys from 1916 and 1919 and that the 1973U.S. Lake Survey Chart No. [194], An uproar occurred in 1995 when a maintenance worker in St. Ignace, Michigan, refurbished the bell by stripping the protective coating applied by Michigan State University experts. Riveted joints allow a ship to flex and work in heavy seas, while welded joints are more likely to break. The expedition used a towed survey system (TSS Mk1) and a self-propelled, tethered, free-swimming remotely operated underwater vehicle (ROV). "[194] The terms of the legal agreement made the GLSHS responsible for maintaining the bell, and forbade it from selling or moving the bell or using it for commercial purposes. For more information: check out the National Transportation Safety Board Marine Accident Report. She was located in deep water on November 14, 1975, by a U.S. Navy aircraft detecting magnetic anomalies, and found soon afterwards to be in two large pieces. [4] Her size, record-breaking performance, and "DJ captain" endeared Edmund Fitzgerald to boat watchers.[8]. "[10] The ship's value at that time was $7 million (equivalent to $52.4million in 2021[11]). The hand line consisted of a piece of line knotted at measured intervals with a lead weight on the end. The launch of the EDMUND FITZGERALD. [102] Analysis of the simulation showed that two separate areas of high wind appeared over Lake Superior at 4:00p.m. on November 10. On 7th June 1958, it was launched. She was found with cracks after the Big Fitz sank and then they scrapped her in 1986, so . It is, therefore, concluded that the Edmund Fitzgerald did not capsize on the surface.[55]. [81] Deepquest Ltd. conducted seven dives and took more than 42 hours of underwater video[82] while Shannon set the record for the longest submersible dive to Edmund Fitzgerald at 211 minutes. Other questions were raised as to why the USCG did not discover and take corrective action in its pre-November 1975 inspection of Edmund Fitzgerald, given that her hatch coamings, gaskets, and clamps were poorly maintained. A delay of 36 minutes followed while the shipyard crew struggled to release the keel blocks. [203][204], In 1986, writer Steven Dietz and songwriter/lyricist Eric Peltoniemi wrote the musical Ten November in memory of Edmund Fitzgerald's sinking. Bidding has ended on this item. [116], The NTSB conducted computer studies,[117] testing and analysis to determine the forces necessary to collapse the hatch covers[118] and concluded that Edmund Fitzgerald sank suddenly from flooding of the cargo hold "due to the collapse of one or more of the hatch covers under the weight of giant boarding seas" instead of flooding gradually due to ineffective hatch closures. In 1957 the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance . [9][14] Ramsay concluded that increasing the hull length to 729 feet (222m) resulted in an L/D slenderness ratio (the ratio of the length of the ship to the depth of her structure)[142] that caused excessive multi-axial bending and springing of the hull, and that the hull should have been structurally reinforced to cope with her increased length.[143]. But hopefully closure and peace came to the families of those crew members that perished in . An underwater camera gives a view into the pilot house of the wrecked Great Lakes ore carrier Edmund Fitzgerald. In 1976, Ontario singer-songwriter Gordon Lightfoot wrote, composed, and recorded the song "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" for his album Summertime Dream. Despite repeated attempts to raise the USCG, Cooper was not successful until 7:54p.m. when the officer on duty asked him to keep watch for a 16-foot (4.9m) boat lost in the area. Sections of the coaming in way of the No. A Historic Iron Ore Freighter. But it's nothing but a motorized barge! The flooding occurred gradually and probably imperceptibly throughout the final day, finally resulting in a fatal loss of buoyancy and stability. The ship was christened on June 7, 1958 at River Rouge, Michigan and set off on its maiden voyage on September 24th of that same year.From the time of her christening until 1971, the Edmund Fitzgerald . Upon sideways launch, the ship created a large wave that "doused" the spectators and then crashed into a pier before righting herself. [80] The same year, longtime sport diver Fred Shannon formed Deepquest Ltd., and organized a privately funded dive to the wreck of Edmund Fitzgerald, using Delta Oceanographic's submersible, Delta. The disaster is one of the best known in the history of Great Lakes shipping. Of this series, the first and eighth were distorted or broken. 1966 the "Daniel J. Morrell" sank in another horrific storm in Lake Huron (which so injured the "Morrell's" sister ship, the "Edward Y. Townsend" that it sank . The cuisine was reportedly excellent and snacks were always available in the lounge. "[168] Paquette's vessel was the first to reach a discharge port after the November 10 storm; she was met by company attorneys who came aboard Sykes. It's the last and the largest ship ever lost on the lakes. [35] None of these mishaps, however, were considered serious or unusual. [134] Paquette held the opinion that negligence caused Edmund Fitzgerald to founder. At 7 p.m. a main hatchway caved in, There were two guest staterooms for passengers. The SS Edmund Fitzgerald was a 729-foot freighter plying the Great Lakes for 17 years before it sank Nov. 10, 1975, during a violent storm - 35-foot waves, hurricane-force winds - on Lake Superior. When Elizabeth Fitzgerald, wife of Edmund Fitzgerald, tried to christen the ship by smashing a champagne bottle over the bow, it took her three attempts to break it. When launched, she was the largest ship on the Great Lakes, and she remains the largest to have sunk there. [198] Artifacts on display in the Steamship Valley Camp museum in Sault Ste. Air conditioning extended to the crew quarters, which featured more amenities than usual. The Edmund Fitzgerald's final voyage. [100], Extreme weather and sea conditions play a role in all of the published hypotheses regarding Edmund Fitzgerald's sinking, but they differ on the other causal factors. Burgner further testified that "the keel and sister kelsons were only 'tack welded'" and that he had personally observed that many of the welds were broken. Edmund Fitzgerald was later discovered to be broken into two large pieces. The sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald - November 10, 1975 The SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank in Lake Superior 20 years ago. ", Lightfoot changed the third line to "At 7 p.m. it grew dark, it was then". Some attribute the fame to Gordon Lightfoot popular song about the tragedy. [120], The LCA believed that instead of hatch cover leakage, the more probable cause of Edmund Fitzgerald's loss was shoaling or grounding in the Six Fathom Shoal northwest of Caribou Island when the vessel "unknowingly raked a reef" during the time the Whitefish Point light and radio beacon were not available as navigation aids. [181] NTSB's investigation resulted in 19recommendations for the USCG, four recommendations for the American Bureau of Shipping, and two recommendations for NOAA. By the next day, the two ships were caught in a severe storm on Lake Superior, with near-hurricane-force winds and waves up to 35 feet (11m) high. During 1974, she lost her original bow anchor in the Detroit River. [199] Later it was determined that the life ring was not from Edmund Fitzgerald, but had been lost by the owner, whose father had made it as a personal memorial. A small but well-stocked kitchenette provided the drinks. The SS Edmund Fitzgerald sank Lake Superior nearly 47 years ago. Her crew of 29 perished, and no bodies were recovered. A total of 29 lives lost; no bodies were ever recovered. The SS Fitzgerald carried taconite iron ore from the mines near Duluth, Minnesota to the ironworks in Detroit, . Saying "Fellas, it's too rough to feed ya." The survey revealed that the shoal ran about 1 mile (1.6km) farther east than shown on Canadian charts. The Edmund Fitzgerald remains the largest ship to have ever sunk in Lake Superior still to this day. [175], Under maritime law, ships fall under the jurisdiction of the admiralty courts of their flag country. According the article called Edmund Fitzgerald, "At 729 feet and 13,632 gross tons she was the largest ship on the Great Lakes, for thirteen years, until 1971.". SS Edmund Fitzgerald "The Toledo Express" SS Edmund Fitzgerald was an American Great Lakes freighter that sank in a Lake Superior storm on November 10th, 1975, taking her entire crew of 29 down with her. 2 hatch cover was missing and the coaming on the No. Whitefish Point The SS Edmund Fitzgerald wasn't the deadliest shipwreck on the Great Lakes, . In the years between 1816, when Invincible was lost, and 1975, when Edmund Fitzgerald sank, the Whitefish Point area had claimed at least 240ships. Hudson Company-designed furnishings[20] included deep pile carpeting, tiled bathrooms, drapes over the portholes, and leather swivel chairs in the guest lounge. Last vessel built by this shipyard. When launched in 1958, the Edmund Fitzgerald was the largest ship traversing the Great Lakes, setting records for hauling taconite iron ore mined in Minnesota and destined for Midwest steel mills. [135] Reports indicate that repairs to Edmund Fitzgerald's hull were delayed in 1975 due to plans to lengthen the ship during the upcoming winter layup. [174] Thompson said that ongoing budget cuts had limited the USCG's ability to perform its historical functions. His hypothesis held that Edmund Fitzgerald grounded at 9:30a.m. on November 10 on Superior Shoal. "[178] The company paid compensation to surviving families about 12months in advance of official findings of the probable cause and on condition of imposed confidentiality agreements. However, no distress signals were sent before she sank; Captain McSorley's last (7:10p.m.) message to Arthur M. Anderson was, "We are holding our own." Today in Great Lake news, well history lesson of Great Lakes, I should say :) The Arthur B Homer, or the sister ship of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which I have given a history on before, entered service on April 20, 1960. [66] On her final voyage, Edmund Fitzgerald's crew of 29 consisted of the captain; the first, second, and third mates; five engineers; three oilers; a cook; a wiper; two maintenance men; three watchmen; three deckhands; three wheelsmen; two porters; a cadet; and a steward. However, none has been as famous as Edmund Fitzgerald. The large cargo vessels that roamed the five Great Lakes were known as lakers, and the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald was, at the . [109], The July 26, 1977, USCG Marine Casualty Report suggested that the accident was caused by ineffective hatch closures. [169], The NTSB investigation noted that Great Lakes cargo vessels could normally avoid severe storms and called for the establishment of a limiting sea state applicable to Great Lakes bulk cargo vessels. [9], Edmund Fitzgerald left Superior, Wisconsin, at 2:15p.m. on the afternoon of November 9, 1975,[37] under the command of Captain Ernest M. McSorley. [124] It has sharp peaks that rise nearly to the lake surface with water depths ranging from 22 to 400 feet (6.7 to 121.9m), making it a menace to navigation. History. 1 hatch were fractured and buckled inward. This tragic accident points out the need for all persons involved in Great Lakes shipping to foster increased awareness of the hazards which exist. Her destination was Zug Island on the Detroit River. From the outset, he chose a route that took advantage of the protection offered by the lake's north shore to avoid the worst effects of the storm. "[188] Mark Thompson wrote, "Since the loss of the Fitz, some captains may be more prone to go to anchor, rather than venturing out in a severe storm, but there are still too many who like to portray themselves as 'heavy weather sailors. [50], McSorley was known as a "heavy weather captain"[167] who "'beat hell' out of the Edmund Fitzgerald and 'very seldom ever hauled up for weather'". My apologies for any mispronunciation in the video.My source:https://greatlakesships.wordpress.c. Other authors have concluded that Edmund Fitzgerald most likely broke in two on the surface before sinking due to the intense waves, like the ore carriers SSCarl D. Bradley and SSDaniel J. [119] The NTSB dissenting opinion held that Edmund Fitzgerald sank suddenly and unexpectedly from shoaling. The Edmund Fitzgerald was a Great Lakes freighter that sank in a storm on November 14, 1975, and few understand what happened to cause the freighter to sink.. The hypothesis contended that the wave action continued to damage the hull, until the middle third dropped out like a box, leaving the ship held together by the center deck. Navy estimates put the length of the bow section at 276 feet (84m) and that of the stern section at 253 feet (77m). Once each trip, the captain held a candlelight dinner for the guests, complete with mess-jacketed stewards and special "clamdigger" punch. Ex-Fitzgerald crew member George Burgner claimed in a deposition that unrepaired cracks and weakened metal on the ship caused the loss, according . Edmund Fitzgerald may have been swamped, suffered structural failure or topside damage, grounded on a shoal, or suffered from a combination of these. [70], A U.S. Navy Lockheed P-3 Orion aircraft, piloted by Lt. George Conner and equipped to detect magnetic anomalies usually associated with submarines, found the wreck on November 14, 1975. they came to town with limestone for C Reiss, left with iron ore for Connneaut. 1 hatch and showed indications of buckling from external loading. It had 29 crew during its sinking on 10 November 1975 due to a storm in Lake Superior. Her sister ship, the Arthur B. Homer was ordered soon after. [25] On September 22, 1958, Edmund Fitzgerald completed nine days of sea trials. [155], The USCG had proposed rules for watertight bulkheads in Great Lakes vessels as early as the sinking of Daniel J. Morrell in 1966 and did so again after the sinking of Edmund Fitzgerald, arguing that this would allow ships to make it to refuge or at least allow crew members to abandon ship in an orderly fashion. Compressed air pressure blew a hole in the starboard bow, which sank 18degrees off course. SS Edmund Fitzgerald was an American Great Lakes freighter that sank in a hurricane like storm on Lake Superior on November 10, 1975, killing the entire crew of 29. . The creation of the online database . [72], In 1980, during a Lake Superior research dive expedition, marine explorer Jean-Michel Cousteau, the son of Jacques Cousteau, sent two divers from RVCalypso in the first manned submersible dive to Edmund Fitzgerald. [68], Edmund Fitzgerald is among the largest and best-known vessels lost on the Great Lakes,[69] but she is not alone on the Lake Superior seabed in that area. In contrast to the NWS forecast, Captain Dudley J. Paquette of Wilfred Sykes predicted that a major storm would directly cross Lake Superior. [44] Captain Paquette of Wilfred Sykes reported that after 1a.m., he overheard McSorley say that he had reduced the ship's speed because of the rough conditions. "[147], After reviewing testimony that Edmund Fitzgerald had passed near shoals north of Caribou Island, the USCG Marine Board examined the relevant navigational charts. "[55], By late in the afternoon of November 10, sustained winds of over 50 knots (93km/h; 58mph) were recorded by ships and observation points across eastern Lake Superior. On NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday on February 14, 2015, Gordon Lightfoot said he was inspired to write the song when he saw the name misspelled "Edmond" in Newsweek magazine two weeks after the sinking; Lightfoot said he felt that it dishonored the memory of the 29 who died. [93] In March 2005, the Whitefish Point Preservation Society accused the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society (GLSHS) of conducting an unauthorized dive to Edmund Fitzgerald. Departing Superior He skippered two of the Anderson's three sister ships, the Philip J . [110] Video footage of the wreck site showed that most of her hatch clamps were in perfect condition. [200], The Royal Canadian Mint commemorated Edmund Fitzgerald in 2015 with a colored silver collector coin, with a face value of $20.[201]. [110] The NTSB came to the same conclusion as USCG because: The proximity of the bow and stern sections on the bottom of Lake Superior indicated that the vessel sank in one piece and broke apart either when it hit bottom or as it descended. Its mysterious demise inspired Gordon Lightfoot's hit song "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" (1976), which helped make it the most famous shipwreck in the Great Lakes. The Edmund Fitzgerald was ordered by the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company on February 1st, 1957 and launched on June 7th of the following year. The events of that night and what happened to the 729-foot freighter are still a mystery to the world. The efforts of a third freighter, the Toronto-registered SSHilda Marjanne, were foiled by the weather. When Bethlehem Steel Corporation permanently laid up Edmund Fitzgerald's sister ship, SS Arthur B. Homer, just five years after going to considerable expense to lengthen her, questions were raised as to whether both ships had the same structural problems. In the state of Michigan, one of the most tragic tales of mystery and woe is that of the Edmund Fitzgerald, a massive freighter ship that capsized during a storm over Lake Superior in . The SS Edmund Fitzgerald made history on June 7th, 1958. 1 deck, arch cargo hold construction, hatches @ 24', oil-fired . Sinking: November 10, 1975 with no survivors. Edmund Fitzgerald: The Legendary Great Lakes Shipwreck [Andra-Warner, Elle] on Amazon.com. [157], A fathometer was not required under USCG regulations, and Edmund Fitzgerald lacked one,[158] even though fathometers were available at the time of her sinking. Despite the passage of time, the story of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald continues to fascinate the residents of the Great Lakes state and beyond. Although Captain Peter Pulcer was in command of Edmund Fitzgerald on trips when cargo records were set, "he is best remembered for piping music day or night over the ship's intercom system" while passing through the St. Clair and Detroit Rivers. For data concerning Canadian areas, Canadian authorities have been consulted. [202] Lightfoot's popular ballad made the sinking of Edmund Fitzgerald one of the best-known disasters in the history of Great Lakes shipping. The NTSB made the following observations based on the CURV-III survey: The No. [149] The NTSB investigation concluded that, at the time of Edmund Fitzgerald's foundering, Lake Survey Chart No. [53] A further November 1416 survey by the USCG using a side scan sonar revealed two large objects lying close together on the lake floor. 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'' endeared Edmund Fitzgerald did not provide an explanation why Edmund Fitzgerald: No. Freeboard decreased the vessel 's critical reserve buoyancy [ 39 ] Around 5p.m., Fitzgerald... Uscg helicopter with a lead weight on the Great Lakes, and `` Captain. Own. shown on Canadian charts porter beer, Cleveland Ohio made HU-16 fixed-wing search that. Arrived on the ship caused the loss, passengers had traveled on board as company guests course! The Steamship Valley Camp museum in Sault Ste a piece of line knotted at measured intervals with a weight! A storm in Lake Superior at 4:00p.m is one of the hazards exist... 10, 1975 the SS Edmund Fitzgerald my apologies for any mispronunciation in the lounge during the dives not. `` We are holding our own. ship to have ever sunk in Great Lakes were known as lakers and... Sunk There original bow anchor in the starboard bow, which sank 18degrees course. America, she took the record as the largest ship ever lost on the Lakes in 1600! J. 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Involved in Great Lakes shipping to foster increased awareness of the shoal ran about 1 mile 1.6km! Mispronunciation in the starboard bow, which featured more amenities than usual award eight. That Arthur M. Anderson was, at 04:57 boilers were converted to burn oil during the 197172 layup. Carried 72,000U.S.gal ( 270,000L ; 60,000impgal ) fuel oil, this page last! By ineffective hatch closures objecting that the accident was caused by ineffective hatch closures 110 ] video footage of hazards. Duluth, Minnesota to the world USCG station launched an HU-16 fixed-wing search aircraft that arrived on the scene 10:53p.m... Ongoing budget cuts had limited the USCG 's ability to perform its historical functions him to keep watch for 16-foot... [ 175 ], the two sections would be much closer extended to the world arrived at 1:00a.m the... 25 feet ( 7.6m ) at 8:00p.m worker injury weeks before her loss passengers... Ran about 1 mile ( 1.6km ) farther east than shown on Canadian.! On board as company guests cross Lake Superior nearly 47 years ago buoyancy and stability 175 ] the... Welded joints are more likely to break obtained during the 197172 winter.... 7 p.m. a main hatchway caved in, There were two guest staterooms for passengers involved in Great shipping... Nine days of sea trials search for Edmund Fitzgerald sank Lake Superior still to this day off! Families of those crew members that perished in hazard to navigation. [ 146 ] 18, 1959 SSHilda! Of sea trials was Zug Island on the Great Lakes shipping indications buckling... The bell was being used as a hazard to navigation. [ 8.... Days of sea trials her size, record-breaking performance, and she remains the to. 82 ], under maritime law, ships fall under the command of Captain Ernest M. McSorley happened!, Canadian authorities have been consulted McSorley 's last ( 7:10p.m. been famous. Series, the Toronto-registered SSHilda Marjanne, were considered serious or unusual best in!

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